In part two of Cricinfo's interview with Sarah Taylor, England Men's fielding coach, she talks about her legacy, how her previous mental health struggles inform her work, and how "cool" it might be to become head coach of a men's team.
If there's one thing Sarah Taylor wants to come from her legacy as the first woman to coach within the England Men's set-up, it's that one day no-one thinks anything of it.
Well into her sixth year of coaching men's teams, in this country and around the world, Taylor's presence in these environments has become more of a "norm" than some people realise. But, as with most firsts, it still draws attention - some of it negative, much of it positive, and none of it sought out by Taylor herself.
And while her comfort zone is using her expertise - built on a playing career spanning more than 12 years as England Women's wicketkeeper, then coaching in men's and women's franchise teams here and in India - she is happy if that forges a path for others.
"I'm not one to push the women agenda, I'm not that person, I just want to be a coach and be seen as a coach," Taylor says. "But if there is a message to come from my involvement in the men's side, it is that, purely as a coach, you just have to be good at the job you've got in hand, which should be the same for everyone. I would like to hope that this is the norm now.
"If this is now opening people's eyes to realise that, 'don't you dare turn your eyes up at a woman coach', and you look and see what they're about, and what they can bring to a team as a human being."
Taylor will also work with England Men's white-ball teams under head coach Brendon McCullum for the T20I and ODI series against Sri Lanka later this month. And while her future involvement with the Test team remains uncertain, at least until new coach Stephen Fleming takes over for the winter tour of South Africa, coaching is where she wants to be.
While there are other women coaching at the top level in women's cricket - Charlotte Edwards with England, Shelley Nitschke with Australia and England Women's Australian-born former head coach Lisa Keightley at various franchises - they remain a rarity.
At this year's Women's Hundred auction, Keightley lamented the lack of female coaches in the room.
And Taylor's appointment to the England Men's camp isn't the last of the firsts remaining on the cricket map.
"It would be cool, wouldn't it, just to be the head coach of some men's team at some point, but ... who knows? I'm just enjoying the journey that I'm in," Taylor continues. "I still pinch myself most mornings, because this is ridiculous. I've just got to work with some amazing people."
Taylor emphasises that those people are across the men's and women's game.
She was the first woman to coach in men's county cricket when she joined Sussex as a specialist wicketkeeping mentor in 2021, before moving on to assistant roles with Team Abu Dhabi, Manchester Originals and England Lions.
Having built up her coaching CV largely in the men's game, she was then appointed fielding coach for WPL side Gujarat Giants before taking up her current job at the start of the England Men's Test summer.
During her latest assignment, she has pushed for wicketkeeper Jamie Smith to stand up to the stumps to Ollie Robinson, which has messed with opposition batters and added another dimension to both players' skill sets.
"It would be cool, wouldn't it, just to be the head coach of some men's team at some point, but ... who knows? I'm just enjoying the journey that I'm in" Sarah Taylor on her future ambitions
It was against New Zealand earlier this summer that Taylor suggested the move to then-Test head coach McCullum, a former wicketkeeper who was receptive to her argument that "we need to be brave" and it has helped Robinson to 23 wickets for the international season so far.
On the one hand, given her reputation as one of the best wicketkeepers in the world across genders, a move into coaching seems natural. But, despite a playing career spanning 226 games for England Women with 232 dismissals and 6,533 runs across all three formats, it's not where she saw herself back then.
Taylor retired in 2019 at the age of 30 after battling with anxiety and panic attacks through much of her playing career. She made a brief comeback in 2021, playing at Welsh Fire for the inaugural season of the Hundred, by which time her coaching journey was well under way. Where it would take her, she didn't yet know.
"This is a life that I never pictured happening, given all the conversations we've had about what my life was a few years back," Taylor tells Cricinfo. "So, yeah, I don't look too far ahead. I try and enjoy the moment. Hopefully, I'll wake up tomorrow, pinch myself again."
Seven years older and wiser, Taylor is in a much better place in terms of caring for her mental health.
"I'm not the one that's going out there now, so that pressure's been removed," Taylor says. "But I think I'm happier in myself and that aids every single aspect of my life.
"Yeah, I went through some dark times, I was very open about it, but it's now a case of when I'm in those pressure environments or you have to deliver on certain things, actually I've got a backbone of experience to look back on and use and then, going forward, I come in with probably better ideas than I had when I was playing.
"Do you have good days and bad days? Absolutely. Am I cured? Absolutely not. But it's something you manage and you work through and you notice the signs earlier, so you get ahead of it."
By being open about her struggles and, eventually, accepting of them, Taylor has opened the door to help others going through similar experiences, enhancing her skills as a coach at the elite level.
"A lot of it is accepting and that probably took me a while," she says. "I felt almost guilt that I was like: 'Why are you feeling that way? No one else feels like that, why are you doing it?' Of course they do. But it's something I've completely accepted that it is who I am.
"My social battery will run down a lot quicker than others, or exactly the same as others, and it's actually just being happy with who I am. I'm genuinely happy with who I am, and that makes my decisions a lot more easy to make."
As part of the England Men's staff, Taylor has a kindred spirit in assistant coach Marcus Trescothick, standing in as head coach through the Pakistan Test series following McCullum's departure and pending Fleming's arrival.
Trescothick's career as England opener was ended by depression and stress-related illness. He and Taylor have been trailblazers in speaking publicly about mental health in the sport and, in doing so, played key roles in paving the way for a more holistic approach to player welfare.
"Me and Tres, we have had our conversations about it," Taylor says. "It's very nice to hear when someone's gone through something similar or they've had that same reaction to something, and it's really nice to have those open and honest conversations.
"He is a lovely, lovely human being that genuinely wants the best for you, as a human being first and then in your career. I feel like I've tried to always be that way, but obviously as a coach you want to portray that and that is how I want to be seen as a coach as well, that is person-first and person-led, and then the cricketer.
"Tres has been unbelievable to work with, as have all the guys. I can't fault any of them."
Taylor and captain Joe Root looked inseparable sitting on the balcony at Lord's during the second Test against Pakistan, which England won by 194 runs to add to their innings victory in the first Test.
Sometimes they were speaking about their shared passion for crossword puzzles, a lot of the time they were speaking about the match unfolding before them. Their bond speaks of Taylor's comfort in the environment, an example she believes other women will follow.
"I definitely think I'll be the first of many," she says. "I think it proves that it's about your ability. It doesn't matter at all whether you're a man or a woman.
"As long as you're good at your job and good in different environments, men's or women's, it doesn't really matter. As long as you can settle into environments and you can create good relationships with players, the sky's the limit."
Previously, part one: Taylor talks about coaching successful England double-act Ollie Robinson and Jamie Smith, plus the opinions that matter to her as a woman working in the men's game.
